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ZanZero suggestion 3: MagicSpells/TMs

Started by 1cec0ld, Mar 06, 2020, 01:17 pm

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Approve of the change?

Yes
No
I'll comment Below.

1cec0ld

Mar 06, 2020, 01:17 pm Last Edit: Mar 06, 2020, 01:24 pm by 1cec0ld
Quote from: ZanZeroI think we should integrate MagicSpells to give players the ability to emulate pokemon moves. I know this has been done before to mixed results, but I have confidence that it can work if implemented correctly. Synderfin brought up a great point when I told him, which was that having more customization and expression in the way we fight each other would make for a much more engaging experience. And I agree. 1ce, however, had a couple concerns which I would like to address here. He brought up the fact that the reason MagicSpells got removed before was that it was griefing bits of the server and a broken meta developed that had no counter (something about encasing people in ice and basically locking them in place). I don't think either of those have to be an issue. To avoid griefing issues we can make all of the spells purely particle based or only create temporary blocks. You can look at the showcase tab on their discord for excellent examples of just how far you can push this plugin. As for balancing a broken meta, I'm a believer that you just have to roll with the punches. Whether that means banning certain combos during league matches or nerfing/buffing moves to accommodate. I have confidence it is something we could handle.
I recommend that we attach moves onto single items and adjust cooldowns based upon how many uses you should have per combat encounter. The usual PvP match is anywhere from 30s-2m so setting cooldowns on big finisher moves to be closer to 4m would make sure they're not spammed or exploited. Average moves should be closer to 30s-1m.
If there are single acquisition TMs or HMs, I would also recommend turning keepinventory on to avoid the inevitable frustration/ragequits when someone loses a move they've worked hard to find. To balance that out I recommend players losing an amount of their money on death, maybe 10%, and potentially if they're killed by a player having them have a low chance to get a badge swiped.
MagicSpells: (https://discord.gg/aZaxDUJ)

r1579

MagicSpells could be great for Tm/Hm's, so long as they are kept in check. if gym battles start becoming decided by the increasing amount of abilityy spam, that could prove to be an issue. I am a firm believer that there are indeed better options, but anything can work given enough effort. besides, the goal of MagicSpells is to make combat more fun and expressive, not be a handful of potential One Hit Knockouts.

Maybe it could be possible for gym leaders to have limited move access for battle (to simulate how they major in one pokemon type?) who knows. for cooldown, 30 seconds for moves like vine whip, 1 minute for moves like aqua ring, growth, and flamethrower, 2 minutes for moves like Thunder, Hyper Beam, and Synthesis.

We could have Tm's sold via shops and by traders scattered throughout the world, but in that case, i wouldn't want them locked behind Vote Tokens. Also, BIG NO to the badge swiping. That would cause SOOOO many new players to get pissed off and leave if they died and lost game progression.  10% money loss upon PVP death is fine, but Keep inventory should be left off as PVP should be a risk vs reward gain. 
"There is a difference between like and trust. Just because I tolerate you nearby doesn't mean your friend. It just means I don't mind your company."


- Legendary Pokemon Slayer
- Master of Axes
- Server Beta Tester

Zanzero

Quote from: r1579 on Mar 06, 2020, 01:52 pmMagicSpells could be great for Tm/Hm's, so long as they are kept in check. if gym battles start becoming decided by the increasing amount of abilityy spam, that could prove to be an issue. I am a firm believer that there are indeed better options, but anything can work given enough effort. besides, the goal of MagicSpells is to make combat more fun and expressive, not be a handful of potential One Hit Knockouts.

Maybe it could be possible for gym leaders to have limited move access for battle (to simulate how they major in one pokemon type?) who knows. for cooldown, 30 seconds for moves like vine whip, 1 minute for moves like aqua ring, growth, and flamethrower, 2 minutes for moves like Thunder, Hyper Beam, and Synthesis.

We could have Tm's sold via shops and by traders scattered throughout the world, but in that case, I wouldn't want them locked behind Vote Tokens. Also, BIG NO to the badge swiping. That would cause SOOOO many new players to get pissed off and leave if they died and lost game progression.  10% money loss upon PVP death is fine, but Keep inventory should be left off as PVP should be a risk vs reward gain. 

I think us setting cooldowns on moves based upon how many times you should be able to use it per battle would work fine. I don't think anything, especially anything strong, should be spammable. However, having even a 1-minute cooldown likely means it'll only be used once, potentially twice. I think for smaller "cantrip" level attacks for something like Bug Bite, Water Gun, Ember, etc. they should be treated almost like a basic attack or cornerstone strategy, having their cooldowns set to something more akin to 10 seconds or so. 30 seconds is reasonable for mid-tier attacks. 1 minute is good for big moves and buffs. 2 minutes would be for finishers that shouldn't be used more than once.

I think if Gym Battles are automated then we set the "Gym Leader" to only have 2-3 moves based on their type. If it's still player based than I think the league standard should be maxed at 4 moves for both players and leaders. I also think if it's automated then having a slight chance to lose a badge wouldn't be too bad. If you've done the challenge once you can easily do it again.

r1579

Quote from: Zanzero on Mar 07, 2020, 03:54 amI also think if it's automated then having a slight chance to lose a badge wouldn't be too bad. If you've done the challenge once you can easily do it again.

That's not the issue. It's the fact it even happens at all is what concerns me. The moment someone dies and loses a badge because some veteran or bloodthirsty player farms them, they are likely to just quit and never return. Even still, it would just cause needless frustration and would get people to shy away from PvP since dying could mean losing in game progression. Losing some money and your gear is a good enough penalty. Besides, I'd rather have everyone do all the gyms instead of some people getting passes and some having to repeat them.
"There is a difference between like and trust. Just because I tolerate you nearby doesn't mean your friend. It just means I don't mind your company."


- Legendary Pokemon Slayer
- Master of Axes
- Server Beta Tester

tenebrae

Players should not lose gym badge progression from dying, whether a silly mistake or a PvP kill. If we can add a set "PP" for each move that requires some sort of recharge, it could work. No recharging at a Pokemon centre, but a special item (elixir) that will recharge the special move. It could be bought with vote tokens, or earned by defeating certain "tough" mobs. MagicSpells would definitely need some serious balancing regardless.

Zanzero

Quote from: tenebrae on Mar 10, 2020, 04:40 pmPlayers should not lose gym badge progression from dying, whether a silly mistake or a PvP kill. If we can add a set "PP" for each move that requires some sort of recharge, it could work. No recharging at a Pokemon centre, but a special item (elixir) that will recharge the special move. It could be bought with vote tokens, or earned by defeating certain "tough" mobs. MagicSpells would definitely need some serious balancing regardless.

Luckily magicspells has a lot of that baked in with options to use items, exp lvls, cooldowns, or "mana" for a casting cost.

I don't know if I agree with having moves be that hard to charge up and use. I think they should become a reliable part of every players toolkit for both PvP and PvE. I think setting cooldowns up so some moves are out of commission for 10+ minutes would be fine if we REALLY want to stop players from spamming it or using it too often.

I think a good idea for a lot of the spells would be having them act as sort of "cantrips" from D&D, where they are weak but reliable parts of a player's kit. I'm thinking like Bug Bite, where it would do 2 damage (1 heart) and heal 2 hunger, but had a 6-second cooldown, meaning you can use it often but not constantly. Or String Shot, which would inflict a target player with Slowness1 for 6 seconds on a 15-second cooldown, and have a cost of 5 string per use. I'd be more than willing to throw together another sheet of 4-6 moves of each type and how I would personally approach designing them if you guys would like.

I recently did one for my own server, converting D&D spells and classes using MagicSpells and although we haven't been able to put it into practice yet, it's looking pretty good at a surface level.

tenebrae

Quote from: Zanzero on Mar 11, 2020, 02:08 pmLuckily magicspells has a lot of that baked in with options to use items, exp lvls, cooldowns, or "mana" for a casting cost.

I don't know if I agree with having moves be that hard to charge up and use. I think they should become a reliable part of every players toolkit for both PvP and PvE. I think setting cooldowns up so some moves are out of commission for 10+ minutes would be fine if we REALLY want to stop players from spamming it or using it too often.

I think a good idea for a lot of the spells would be having them act as sort of "cantrips" from D&D, where they are weak but reliable parts of a player's kit. I'm thinking like Bug Bite, where it would do 2 damage (1 heart) and heal 2 hunger, but had a 6-second cooldown, meaning you can use it often but not constantly. Or String Shot, which would inflict a target player with Slowness1 for 6 seconds on a 15-second cooldown, and have a cost of 5 string per use. I'd be more than willing to throw together another sheet of 4-6 moves of each type and how I would personally approach designing them if you guys would like.

I recently did one for my own server, converting D&D spells and classes using MagicSpells and although we haven't been able to put it into practice yet, it's looking pretty good at a surface level.

I never thought of item sacrifice to use spells. It just reminded me of Runecraft when we had it, where you would use items for a desired effect. If you wouldn't mind putting together a sheet with some moves, it would be much appreciated.